A well respected, award winning social enterprise
Volunteer run - Government and charity funded
We help 50,000 people a year through divorce

01202 805020

Lines open: Monday to Friday 9am-5pm
Call for FREE expert advice & service info

Holiday Abroad

  • alreid1612
  • alreid1612's Avatar Posted by
  • Elite Member
  • Elite Member
More
04 Jul 20 #513139 by alreid1612
Topic started by alreid1612
Out of the blue my partner's ex has engaged solictors to demand why my partner has taken their daughter on holiday to France without seeking his permission to do so. This is to the same location she has gone to on 9 previous occasions over the past 3 years and no permission was asked for or demanded on any of those times. They have joint custody of the child, aged 11, although she resides with my partner for 10 and a half months of the year. The contact order granting the husband the remaining 6 weeks of the year is currently under suspension pending the criminal investigation into the ex's inappropriate behaviour with his daughter. My understanding is that my partner is allowed to take her daughter out of the country for up to 28 days on holiday without having to inform the father. Is this assumption correct?

Thanks

  • WYSPECIAL
  • WYSPECIAL's Avatar
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
More
05 Jul 20 - 05 Jul 20 #513141 by WYSPECIAL
Reply from WYSPECIAL
Depends what court orders you have in place and what they say.

You mention custody but there has been no such thing for many years.

Does your partner have a Child Arrangement Order from the court stating where the child is to live?

The action is probably driven by the suspension of the Contact Order rather than out of the blue but presumably the Court have serious concerns if they decided to suspend the Contact Order.
Last edit: 05 Jul 20 by WYSPECIAL.

  • alreid1612
  • alreid1612's Avatar Posted by
  • Elite Member
  • Elite Member
More
05 Jul 20 #513142 by alreid1612
Reply from alreid1612
Thank you. The divorce was in 2011. There does not appear to be a Child Arrangement order per se. There is a Contact order which deals almost entirely with access for the father, it therefore recognizing that the child is resident with the mother. This 'residency' has never been challenged since 2011.
At the end of the contact order there is a warning 'residence order is in force. no person may remove the child from the UK without the written consent of every person with parental responsibility for the child.
It then says 'this does not prevent the removal of the child for a period of less that one month by the person in whose favour the residence order is made'
So if there is no residence order this does not apply and there is no mention of it (the written permission) in the contact order or Consent Order.
The contact order was suspended 8 months ago.

  • WYSPECIAL
  • WYSPECIAL's Avatar
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
More
05 Jul 20 - 05 Jul 20 #513143 by WYSPECIAL
Reply from WYSPECIAL
Back in 2011 it was still Contact Orders and Residence Orders.

Looks like your partners ex got a Contact Order in their favour to define when contact will take place but your partner doesn't have a Residence Order?


If that's the case then it is correct that she will need the permission of her ex or a court to take their child abroad.
Last edit: 05 Jul 20 by WYSPECIAL.

  • alreid1612
  • alreid1612's Avatar Posted by
  • Elite Member
  • Elite Member
More
05 Jul 20 #513144 by alreid1612
Reply from alreid1612
Ouch. When the couple split it was agreed that the child would remain with the mother. She was only 2 or 3 at the time. This was not disputed. The contact order was formalised 2 years after the divorce when the mother moved further away and it about access arrangements for the father given that the mother had 'residency'.
Does the fact that the father has never requested he give his permission nor has the mother ever asked for it not give precedence to the fact that it is entirely reasonable to assume that it is not needed for periods under a month. If not the danger is the ex will simply deny the daughter for the mother and daughter to have a holiday abroad.
Having gone abroad without getting his permission, because we do no believe we needed it, what sanctions can be made against us on return. Or do we stop the holiday and tell the child why we are going home (and his solicitors will accuse us of threats, using the child against the father etc.
I am afraid I am dealing with a vindictive individual who first resort is always the court as he can easily afford all the associated fees.

  • WYSPECIAL
  • WYSPECIAL's Avatar
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
More
05 Jul 20 - 05 Jul 20 #513146 by WYSPECIAL
Reply from WYSPECIAL

alreid1612 wrote: Ouch. When the couple split it was agreed that the child would remain with the mother. She was only 2 or 3 at the time. This was not disputed. The contact order was formalised 2 years after the divorce when the mother moved further away and it about access arrangements for the father given that the mother had 'residency'.


There is no need for it to be disputed. The courts expectation is the majority of parents will agree things between themselves. They will only make an order when asked to do so by consent or if they believe it is in the best interests of the child.

alreid1612 wrote: Does the fact that the father has never requested he give his permission nor has the mother ever asked for it not give precedence to the fact that it is entirely reasonable to assume that it is not needed for periods under a month. If not the danger is the ex will simply deny the daughter for the mother and daughter to have a holiday abroad.


The father doesn't need to request that he give his permission. His permission needs to be sought. Just because permission is granted for one trip it cannot be assumed that this covers all trips in the future as there may be reasons for refusing one trip where another would be agreed. For example the country of destination or the current COVID-19 situation.

If permission is refused you can ask a court to decide if the refusal is reasonable or not and seek their permission in place of the other parents. It is unlikely a court will refuse to allow a foreign holiday if there are no other concerns.

alreid1612 wrote: Having gone abroad without getting his permission, because we do no believe we needed it, what sanctions can be made against us on return. Or do we stop the holiday and tell the child why we are going home (and his solicitors will accuse us of threats, using the child against the father etc.


Are you referring to something historic? Is the letter from the solicitor relating to a holiday you took, for example, last year without seeking permission and you have since returned to the UK? Or are you currently planning a holiday and the ex has become aware of your plans and has concerns that you have not yet sought permission?

The Gov.uk website will probably give you a lot of helpful information on how to get permission and what you need to do. www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad

If the ex is just being vindictive and unreasonable then the court is unlikely to refuse permission.
Last edit: 05 Jul 20 by WYSPECIAL.

  • alreid1612
  • alreid1612's Avatar Posted by
  • Elite Member
  • Elite Member
More
05 Jul 20 #513148 by alreid1612
Reply from alreid1612
Very helpful. Thank you. No nothing historic. We arrived in France last Thursday. On Friday we received a letter from his solicitors saying a friend had told him we were intending to holiday abroad and that ex had not given permission to go beyond UK jurisdiction and would no do so. By this stage we were already abroad. I am presuming we can not be made to return but was wondering what other sanctions were available. I have absolutely no doubt this has been seized upon by him to add to the ongoing two court cases with him - financial application to cease spousal maintenance and the child protection issue. He has had precious few arrows to fire in both so trying to portray my partner's irresponsibility and flouting of court direction over the holiday issue is something he will try and big up.
I will check out the website referred to. Thank you

Moderators: wikivorce teamrubytuesdaydukeyhadenoughnowTetsSheziLinda SheridanForsetiMitchumWhiteRoseLostboy67WYSPECIALBubblegum11