Hi. I don''t wish to get off the point by referring to the myriad of other issues. I had wondered about this specific scenario. I seek an expert opinion on that only and whether or not a criminal offence is committed when a third party kept a child from the parent with entitlement to lawful control. S2 Child Abduction Act 1984 suggests this is so but it may not be a comfortable fit. I''m not really sure the responses from those with thousands of posts to their name indicate an understanding of criminal v civil codes.
Context of the situation is important; which is why I asked about the other issues you briefly alluded to.
If you want an expert opinion then you should speak to an experienced solicitor, rather than relying on the goodwill of posters on a community forum where, on the whole, posters are not legally qualified and offer advice and support based on personal experiences and understanding of family law.
Your posts on this thread have been combative and unappreciative of the time others have spent in trying to help you. I doubt very much if anyone will respond to your posts after your rude and unnecessary comment "I''m not really sure the responses from those with thousands of posts to their name indicate an understanding of criminal v civil codes."
If you want to persist with the idea that there has been a criminal offence committed, you will need to seek advice from someone who is experienced in criminal law. Here at wikivorce, we have experience and expertise in family law. As you will see from the responses you have had, we seek to support those going through divorce and separation
and to minimise the stress and expense of proceedings where possible.
If the police do not think action is warranted, then you may have recourse to a private prosecution. A suitably qualified criminal lawyer will (at a price) be able to advise you of your chances of success.
On the contrary I was very civil in my question. The problem was that despite me explaining the issue ad nauseum there appeared to be an inability to understand the scenario that I described. Clearly some responses indicated either that the original question had not been read or a wish to give assertive advice despite not having a grasp of the respective civil and criminal codes or that the issue was not seen as being redress against the mother which would have been for a breach through the Family Court. Only one person appears to have understood. My mistake appears to have been to try to explain my perspective and reasoning. Feel free to moderate me off the forum if that perspective doesn''t fit with your view of this virtual world.
Just one more thing. The mods / Admin people appear to have decided that there is still a lot of anger about my ex and her new relationship. Where on Earth did those persons read anything that evidenced that. Au Contraire. I had hoped it would get her off my case and he is welcome to that. Please don''t make up stuff that isn''t there, that''s just garbage and shows poor deductive reasoning. ''Just accept it was a mistake''. It most likely wasn''t but again the point was missed. My grievance is against those third parties defying me as a parent regardless of the mothers culpability not the mother.
As I said previously, if you require an expert opinion on this issue, then you will need to see a criminal solicitor for guidance and advice.
The 2 people concerned had an arrangement and agreement with the children''s mother - yous said yourself that Mum had made an "error" in the timing of the arrangements, meaning that you were not aware of the agreed collection time by Mum from the friend and partner. An error - not a deliberate attempt to cut short your time with the children. Is this abduction? I would think not - there was no malicious intent here, just an error over collection times.
There is also the question of what your intention here is - would you intend to seek a prosecution (if for argument''s sake this incident is a legal abduction); and if so, have you considered the negative and hostile effect this would have on the already difficult relationship you have with your ex (as already pointed out by a previous poster) - and undoubtedly this would filter down to the children, and could well impact on them.
I asked about the other issues you briefly mentioned as context is vital - but you refuse to provide any context; this means that no-one has a full view of the situation and can''t provide the appropriate advice to you. As you make clear that you wish for this incident to be viewed in isolation, the advice to accept there was a misunderstanding and to seek to improve communications between you and your ex to prevent a repeat incident seems the most appropriate.
Whether the mother had made an error or not is not the issue. It is not that which is the crux of the consideration as to whether there is a Prima Facie case to answer on the part of third parties. Neither do I understand what you mean by me not being aware of the collection time from these persons. The only issue under consideration is whether or not keeping a child from a parent is an offence. The fact that the two parents are divorced is irrelevant. Had I not been divorced from the mother and gone to collect them instead of her then this is what gives the light to your argument that there is no culpability. Third parties cannot defy the person with Parental responsibility unless they have a defence under s2 Child Abduction Act 1984. At what point does it become an offence? Once I have asked 10 times over a period of hours or several times over 10 minutes?. There was intent to keep the child on behalf of those parties in one case it lasted one hour 10 minutes. I suggest next time you go to collect your child from your neighbour and she refuses then get back to me later with your feelings. I can tell you now what those will be. I don''t give a hoot what arrangement the mother had with her mates. I am the parent...end of.